How My Gay Brother and His Partner are Destroying My Marriage; or Marriage Equality and the Question of Faith

My husband and I have been married for a few decades now. We’ve been working hard on achieving the happily ever after that’s been promised in fairy tales, rom-coms, and romance novels. Alas, my state is now the seventh state in the union to pass marriage equality.

It had already gone through the State Senate and then, on February 8, the House voted our marriage equality bill into being. Suddenly, without realizing why, my husband and I started bickering. It was sad and ugly, but we just couldn’t help ourselves. We later learned it was the fault of the 55-43 vote.

Washington State Governor Christine Gregoire signed the bill on February 13 and I’ll be darned if Gary and I didn’t almost have a knock-down, drag-out that day. It just erupted inexplicably. Of course, then we turned on the news and realized”¦ we were fighting because my brother and his partner were celebrating. We had to keep balance in the universe – their joy, our angst. Their yin to our yang. (Or would that be our yin to their yang?)

The law takes effect on June 7. Gary and I are really bracing ourselves. If Tad and Paul, and people “of their kind” start partying big time, what will become of us? Why, the whole foundation of marriages statewide will begin to crumble. People “like us” will overrun the divorce courts. Our alimony checks will break the banks”¦

The Truth of Our Family

Hubby Gary, Me, my Mom, Baby Bro Tad, Bonus Bro Paul

My baby brother, Tad, came into my life when I was almost 12 years old. I have adored him, worshiped him, spoiled him from the first moment I laid eyes on him.

Tad’s partner, Paul, is also beloved in our family. Tad and Paul have been together for more than ten years and, in those years, we have been grateful to Paul for bringing security, stability, and love into Tad’s life. We have also been grateful to Paul for being the one to buy all the Christmas gifts and maintain contact with the rest of us, while Tad was off doing”¦ whatever it is that Tad does!

I love my brother, but the truth is, he’s not good at correspondence. Except for the occasional text message. So yes. I love my bonus brother. Or, my extra brother. Or, my brother-in-law. Over the years, I’ve called Paul all of those things. There has been no wedding, no ceremony, no wedding license. Now, with this new law coming into effect, that may change. It may not. That will be their choice. But, at least they will have a choice. Just like Gary and I had a choice. Or, at least I am praying they will.

The Battle

Governor Christine Gregoire

As has happened in other states that have struggled with the issue of marriage equality, Washington state’s battle will continue. Before Gov. Gregoire had even signed the bill, opponents were beginning to gather momentum and signatures in order to put a referendum on our next ballot.

Just who are these opponents? The latest polling on gay marriage conducted by the Pew Research Center in October of 2011 found that the public is divided almost evenly on the issue. It is the evangelical and the more traditional, ethnic Christians who show the greatest opposition. Crosswalk.com reported on the poll in the following way:

  • 74% of white evangelical Protestants are opposed
  • 62% percent of black Protestants oppose gay marriage
  • 46% of Americans favor allowing gays and lesbians to legally marry
  • 54% of white mainline Protestants are in favor of gay marriage
  • 52% of Catholics are in favor of gay marriage (in 2010 the numbers were nearly even)
  • Religiously unaffiliated Americans expressed the highest levels of support for gay marriage, with 72% [1]

If you are not a Christian, or not a conservative Christian, you may have little understanding of the differences in theology and how some Christians can believe that homosexuality and marriage equality are sins, while other Christians believe they are just a part of everyday life. The differences come in how we look at the Bible. Is it the inerrant Word of God and everything in it is literally true? Or is the Bible inspired by God and we find God’s truths to be in it?

Opponents of marriage equality frequently use specific verses from the Bible to “prove” that God abhors homosexuality and that gays and lesbians, themselves, are an aberration. They use other scriptures to “prove” that marriage is only to exist between a man and a woman.

How Can We Ignore the Bible?

It cannot be denied that there are some very difficult scriptures in the Bible. Adam and Eve are the first couple recorded in Biblical writings and they are a heterosexual couple (Genesis 2 & 3). Sodom and Gomorrah is the well-known story of sin and destruction (Genesis 13ff). And we’ve probably all heard that a man must not lie with another man as with a woman (Leviticus 18:22) and that women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones (Romans 1:26).

But, what happens if we take a closer look at those “anti-homosexual” passages? As with most passages in the Bible, if we look at the time in which they were written and the people for whom they were written, we begin to see a much bigger picture.

Adam and Eve are the first recorded couple and they are heterosexual for one very good reason. God said it very plainly and simply: “Be fruitful and multiply.” There were no test tube babies or artificial insemination in those days. So, “male and female He created them.” Plain and simple.

Sodom and Gomorrah is a horror story. In a time when hospitality was valued most highly and expected wherever you went, Sodom and Gomorrah tell us the story of inhospitality and gang rape. And, as women, as sisters, as mothers, we should be especially horrified. Because Bible hero Lot says to the visitors, in his wonderfully hospitable way of protecting his guests, “Here, don’t take these men. Take my daughters, instead.”

As for the other two passages, they’ve been interpreted multitudes of ways but, most likely, they’re talking about unnatural actions. Do not go against your nature. The Romans passage may be talking about prostitution.

Let’s face it, if you want to prove a point, you can pick and choose your way through the Bible, pull a phrase out here and there, and voilà, point made. But, if you learn your history, your point may be spoiled.

However, if you do want to take the Bible literally, it’s best to learn the history and meaning behind each scripture. You need to know exactly how and why you’re following each law.

I loved A.J. Jacobs’s book, The Year of Living Biblically, although I was somewhat disappointed that he didn’t truly follow all 613 Jewish laws. But, really, was I expecting the stoning of adulterers and the sacrificing of bulls?

As Jacobs reflects on his experience, he writes, “I found that fundamentalists may claim to take the Bible literally, but they actually just pick and choose certain rules to follow. By taking fundamentalism [to the] extreme, I found that literalism is not the best way to interpret the Bible.”[2]

There are many people who consider themselves to be Biblical fundamentalists or literalists, but this means different things to different people. If Jacobs could not even follow the 613 Jewish laws for one year, chances are good that few other people are following everything the Bible commands day in and day out for their entire lives.

We cut our hair and shave. We wear clothing of mixed fabrics. We go out and about in public when we’re menstruating. We even go to worship. And yes, we can have sex at that time of the month. We don’t care if cows of different breeds graze in the same field. We don’t stone people. We certainly don’t bash our enemies’ children’s heads on rocks. And, for heaven’s sake, we would NEVER stop someone who is physically disfigured from coming into one of our faith communities.

Some might argue that those laws are just in the Hebrew Scriptures. They are passé. They do not apply to all of us. Especially if we’re Christians. After all, Jesus came and established a new covenant.

Then, we need to ask, what about the Ten Commandments? We still follow those and they are most definitely from the Hebrew Scriptures.

Perhaps it’s time that we all just admit that we follow some of the laws because they are for the good of God and humanity. We have left some laws in the past because they were given for a people and a time long since gone.

Why We, As People of Faith, Must Speak

They’re so very vocal, the evangelical, conservative Christians who are on the news, on the telephone, outside our grocery stores, and working so hard to get our signatures and our votes. Working so hard to make sure that marriage will only be between a man and a woman. They picket at funerals with their “GOD HATES F@#S” signs. They carry their anti-this/anti-that signs up and down our streets. And the impact this is having on our world is tremendous.

It’s almost as if people are feeding on fear and anger. Judgmentalism and hatred will continue to spread like wildfire.  Until love stands in the way.

If you’ve seen the movie or the play The Laramie Project, or remember Matthew Shepherd’s story you know how love can stand in the way. You’ve seen the “angels” standing in powerful, silent, peaceful protest, stopping the hatred before it can spread any further.

Christina Ricci in "The Laramie Project" movie.

We need the “angels” to step up. We need those people of courage to step up. If no one does, if the rest of us remain silent, then God’s realm of justice, peace, grace is swept away.

That’s why people of faith must speak. That’s why people of faith must stand up and say, “Yes, there must be equal rights for our GLBTQ brothers and sisters and children. There must be equal rights for all of God’s people.”

Who knows? Maybe there will be a wedding in my family pretty soon. How about yours?


[1] http://www.pewforum.org/Gay-Marriage-and-Homosexuality/Religion-and-Attitudes-Toward-Same-Sex-Marriage.aspx

[2] http://www.ajjacobs.com/books/yolb.asp

Published by

Tamalyn

Still seeking a world of peace & justice, this minister, mate, and mom - an ordained minister in the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), finds great happiness and God's presence in many places: from sandy beaches to the top of a Teton, soup kitchens to used bookstores. Tamalyn embraces the philosophy that "Life is Good," but we have much work to do.

64 thoughts on “How My Gay Brother and His Partner are Destroying My Marriage; or Marriage Equality and the Question of Faith”

  1. I’d like to dedicate this thread to Rick, my new BFF for life. May everyone venture with caution and not waste the precious raising of your blood pressure on Rick’s strict interpretation of the bible, including his strong stance of poly-cotton blends, the mixing of crops, stoning, and the most hideous of all evil…shellfish.

    Rick, baby, you stay pressed. I’mma gonna go gay dance on Don Perry’s grave.

  2. “My Brother Is Ruining My Marriage”       There are so many Christian errors in your argument.   You have completely misrepresented what the Bible really said.   Proverbs 18:2  “A fool does not seek knowledge, but is quick to give an opinion.”      You provided many opinions and presented them as solid evidence.   Also, at the bottom of your article, the choice of reaction by the readers….NONE of the choices offered could be negative.
    The readers could either agree with the article or could check a silly response.  That tells me a lot.

    1. Rick, I actually think Proverbs 18:2  goes like this

      ”A fool does not seek knowledge, but is quick to give an opinion. Yay, and he sayeth to me, I can’t even lie, I fuck better when I’m drankin, Ride dick like a pro, throw the pussy like I’m famous.”

      I’m pretty sure thats how Proverbs 18:2 actually goes. At least in the gay party version of proverbs.

      Eh, you say tomatoe, I say tomatoh.

      1. You listed some verses…..but you did not type what is there and what your point is.   I have no idea what your point is with these verses.    On my end, I do not look for loopholes to beat the Bible or use a choice verse from here and there  out of context to  stick it to somebody.  That is not the purpose of Christianity.   The Bible should be used to do good things and bring people to Christ…..not used to trip somebody up or win an argument for 15 minutes before somebody finds out you are wrong.   Everything I have written has been to get you to think about the path you are on and examine how you just might not be on solid footing.   In general, I would encourage you to read the Bible with an accepting attitude and not look for ways to defeat it and find loopholes.  I would guess that would be worse than not reading it at all.

         

      1. When I see where somebody starts off a conversation with, “I am a Christian….”, and then all further statements  are nothing more than an opinion with no Bible connection or a Bible story  or verse that has been twisted to mislead……I am compelled to remind that person that he is probably condemning himself.  In general, if a person is engaging in homosexual activity and misusing the Bible to justify what he is doing……he is misleading himself and those who listen to him.   It is one of the worse things a person can do leading up to Judgment Day……to drag others down the wrong path.

  3. The apostle Paul never met Jesus???  He was knocked off his horse by the bright light of Jesus.
    Jesus selected Paul to be His messenger to the Gentiles.  You are using Christian evidence from the Bible, but you are skewing the facts.  I suspect that you are not a Christian.  A Christian would not make that accusation on Paul.  Paul is the central  contributor of the New Testament.  The book of  Romans is the theology of Christianity, as explained by Paul.  Paul is Christianity, and Christianity is Paul.

    He is not some minor character who said some bizarre things that were his own opinion.  To condemn Paul is to condemn the message of Jesus.  He was an educated, dedicated Jew who worked against the Christians, but was recruited by Jesus to promote the Christian message….with that same vigor.  The energy was re-directed.

     

    1. Rick, Imma let you finish, but again, theres that “dont judge” shit that our buddy Jesus was all about, and yet, your up in this article talking about who is a real Christian or not.  Now Rick, I certainly think I can’t change your mind, but perhaps I can point out this strange little coincidence.

       

  4. The apostle Paul is one of the biggest New Testament-era sources for stuff like this, but I think it’s important to remember that Paul was a fanatic even before he converted to Christianity, and actually never even met Christ. He made himself an apostle – he wasn’t vetted by anyone else. Paul is possibly the worst example of early Christianity we could have.

  5. I’m a Christian, and I don’t claim to know whether being gay is a sin or not. I do, however, believe in people’s legal right to do whatever the crap they want as long as it’s not hurting anyone else. In addition, my God is a loving God who is full of compassion and care for people, and I want to live that out to people, not show them judgment and hatred. What kind of a testimony is it if Christians are cruel, judgmental, harsh, and legalistic? Romans 14 pretty straight up tells us not to be. That’s not who I know God to be, and I think he’s more upset than anyone about the kind of picture many of His people are portraying of who He is. One major perk of being a Christian is that I have the utmost assurance that Mr. God-hates-fags himself, Fred Phelps, is going to burn in hell for all eternity, and I couldn’t be more satisfied about that. I think the only people who deserve to be despised are those who hurt, hate, and despise others.

    1. A Christian knows for a fact that the act of homosexuality and Christianity are incompatible.  Romans !:15 and following thoroughly established that.  So-called “gay marriage” does not stand alone….it intrudes on Christian marriage which is explained in Matthew 19:4-6.   There is no such thing as a part-time Christian.  Not my opinion….Jesus said so.     Also, WE do not get to tell God who he is and define him according to what WE think makes the correct God.  Christians cannot explain Christianity with sentences that begin with, “I think…”   Christianity is NOT what WE think, but what Jesus said and did.   We read, believe, and accept what Jesus said, and what WE think Jesus should have said is irrelevant and  we are blaspheming to correct Jesus.  We do not get to change the Bible to suit what we think is right.   Hatred is not coming from real Christians.  Real Christians do not express an opinion, but are stating what Jesus or Paul or Matthew, or James, etc., said on a given subject.    To do otherwise is not Christian behavior.   Read Romans 1:15+.   God is not happy with homosexual behavior….or other bad related behavior.   It is what it is.  It is our job to accept….not argue with God and bend God into what WE think is right.   Real Christians do not hate homosexuals……they do hate the homosexual act…..which is an abomination.

        1. The anti-Christians love to quote that “don’t judge” thing in Matthew 7.   To not judge means to not CONDEMN.   We are not to say who is going to Hell for what they are doing.   That we leave to Jesus on Judgment Day.  But, Christians are required to speak up about bad behavior.    So, yes….we can express how bad behavior is un-Christian…..but we don’t condemn it.    I cannot think of anything more disgusting than  two men naked.  Some have even committed suicide when they saw on way out of being dealt such a bad hand in life.  It’s not about being homosexual…..it is about acting on it.    And then  trying to force everybody else to flush their brains down the commode and say that homo sex is just fine.  That attitude at the leadership level has ruined many civilizations, especially the Romans and Greeks.

           

          1. Two men having sex seems to really freak guys out – and why shouldn’t it? It basically is like cooties, watch out! You gonna catch it!  But I bet when you bunker down for the night, you have no problem watching two women naked.

            It seems to me if you find sex between two men so disgusting, your putting a little personal opinion in there. I dont think anywhere in Bible, did Jesus say, ” Oh man, sex between two dudes is totes gross, WHATEVER FAGGOTS, I HOPE YOU COMMIT SUICIDE”. No, only bigots say stuff like that. But your not a bigot. Your a christian! Silly me, I’m so sorry, I got confused there, what after flushing my brain down the commode.

            The big,fat, gay gayer than jesus dancing on a rainbow pogo stick made of Bette Midler’s spirit and homophobic bigot tears commode.

             

            1. I have no interest in seeing two girls naked.    I am a married man in a Christian relationship.   I spend zero time hoping to catch such a scene.

              There is nothing wrong with an opinion as long it is represented as an opinion….and not as empirical evidence.  If you read my responses carefully, you will see that I am very clear about my sources and make every attempt to be on the correct side of established Christian theology.  As usual, it is almost impossible to have a conversation with somebody who is trying to live opposite of Christianity……it turns to name-calling right off, because there is no evidence or logic on that side of the debate.   In the history of mankind, what parents or siblings or relatives or friends were ever happy to find out about that son, daughter, cousin, friend was homosexual ?   It has always caused heartache…..for a reason.    And not because the world has been stupid for 10,000 years.

          2. But, Christians are required to speak up about bad behavior.    So, yes….we can express how bad behavior is un-Christian…..but we don’t condemn it.    I cannot think of anything more disgusting than  two men naked.  Some have even committed suicide when they saw on way out of being dealt such a bad hand in life.  It’s not about being homosexual…..it is about acting on it.    And then  trying to force everybody else to flush their brains down the commode and say that homo sex is just fine.

            Personally, I find the men of authority within the churches who have sexually abused children to be disgusting. It was particularly disgusting when churches tried to force everybody to cover up the actions, saying the men did no wrong, and then stood by when those sexually abused children often went on to commit suicide. So if Christians are going to speak up about “bad behaviour”, it may be useful for them to look in a mirror first.

            1. When anybody gets involved in sinful living…..that person is NOT representing Christianity.  That bad behavior is not “typical Christian”.   That person is acting alone and represents himself…..and nobody else.     A priest abusing children is NOT applying anything Christian, at all.    He did not get that idea from the Bible.     This goes for ALL bad behavior at any time in history.   Any king or general who acted in some cruel fashion…….that was not because of his Christian connection.   He instead, set Christianity aside and acted on his own.

              1. When anybody gets involved in sinful living…..that person is NOT representing Christianity.  That bad behavior is not “typical Christian”.   That person is acting alone and represents himself…..and nobody else.

                The child abuse scandals were enabled and covered up by some of the “greatest” representatives of Christianity, representatives that supposedly embody Christianity. They knew of the great numbers of abusers, and allowed it to continue.

                1. You make it so easy.   Those in the hierarchy doing the cover up…..that is not Christian behavior.   They have left the reservation, acting on their own.   It is real simple.   In Luke 12:48….”to whom much is given…much is expected.”     It is very obvious that those in the hierarchy had been given much power and they did nothing good with it….not a Christian action, at all……following their own inclinations.

                  If my cousin robs a bank,  does that mean that I, too, am a bank robber?  He is on his own!  Real Catholics abhor those in the hierarchy who did any of the cover ups.  It is a ridiculous argument to even bring that up as typical Catholic Christian behavior.

                  Surely you have noticed that in all my correspondences to at least 3 people on this topic…..I do not state my opinion…..it is not my opinion….it is what I read in the Bible.   I simply support Moses, Jesus, Paul, John, etc.
                  All of you are really debating Jesus, Paul, John, etc.   What they say…..that is my opinion.

                  1. You support the Bible and those in it. I don’t. Not everyone is going to agree with you, and I don’t intend to seek to change your view. My intention was simply to point out that when the most powerful representations on earth of Christianity can’t partake in Christian behaviour, then there’s something wrong. I choose to have my own opinion, based on what is around me, and not to submit my autonomy to a book written thousands of years ago.

                2. To Juniper.       No real Christian approves of cover ups on anything.   If you could find a so-called Christian that did approve…..that is what you found…..a so-called Christian.    This is not hard to comprehend.    One more time……Christianity is not a bad thing…it is not poison.  Sometimes, people stray from Christian behavior and represent only themselves.   How can anybody try to pin bad behavior on Jesus?  He did promote that, at all.

                  1. Then I guess the head of the Catholic church isn’t a real Christian? I would also beg to differ on whether or not Christianity is a bad thing. There has been much suffering in the name of Christianity. I am going to leave the discussion there, however. I have made my points, you have made yours.

          3.  I cannot think of anything more disgusting than  two men naked.

            I can. Easy. War. Rape. Murder. Naked dudes now, naked dudes don’t even register on my disgusting scale until they start having rotting flesh disease or some shit. Most naked dudes (in whatever quantity really, onesies, twosies, lotsises) are pretty ok by me. Why shouldn’t they be? Naked is how God made us.

            1. Once again, you have no evidence or logical reply.   Only an attempt to mock, trivialize, marginalize.   And discussing the 1%  of an issue instead of the 99%.  Focusing on something similar or other bad behavior.    I will will never get any concession from you…..but that is not my purpose.  I am only planting a seed so that you and others who read the exchanges will think about the Bible truth and at some time later in life…..make a change.

              1. I don’t have room in my garden for your seed of intolerance to grow. It is too full with love of God and my fellow man and too carefully weeded for bad plants. I know the Bible. I have read it. It is a book of love, powerful, challenging, love. I can find no evidence in scripture of Christ disgusted by two people in love. He talks of taking care of each other, not tearing each other down. He says we are to tend to our own spirits and leave others to the judgement of God. So I will keep my own heart open to love, and I will offer that love to others. You can tend your own garden.

                You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things

                That’s Romans 2:1. You know, the bit that follows right after the bit in Romans you think declared that there is no room for homosexual followers of Christ. Tend your own garden.

                1. Judgment in the NT means condemnation…..we are not to condemn.   We are commanded to speak out against bad behavior, not ignore it….because that means we accept the bad behavior.     But, those who do not accept what the Bible says…..love to bring up “not judging”.  Do not judge me….is always a losing argument.

                  1. Imma just drop Matthew 7:3 again, cause it didn’t stick the first time. Jesus is clear about deal with your own problems. And then of course we come to the impasse that I don’t think there is anything immoral in homosexuality, so I don’t even have to worry about it in the first place.

              2. Rick, I’m going to ask you again to read our comments policy. If you don’t want to click over for some reason, I have pasted it here:

                Empathy: Are you at least trying to look at an issue from someone else’s perspective?

                Levity: We have a warm place in our cold, cold hearts for comments that display a sense of humor. Make us laugh and win us over forever.

                Vitality: Are you adding something lively and important to the conversation?

                In context: Does your comment fit the post to which you are replying? We love personal stories, but keep ‘em on topic.

                Sensitivity: Be aware that not everyone who visits this site has the same experiences. Opinions will differ because you’re all unique and come from a unique set of circumstances. Respect that we all have subjects that are of particular importance to us, and we all may respond passionately about those issues. Listen and think before you post.

                Please read this carefully and think carefully before you post anything further in this thread.

      1. A Christian knows for a fact that the act of homosexuality and Christianity are incompatible.

        There are many Christians who don’t believe that. There are some who do, but nevertheless are able to demonstrate grace, compassion and humility in expressing that opinion. You can meet some of both kinds here.

        1. Christianity…..homosexuality incompatible.                                                                                                                    It does not matter what many Christians believe.  Christian theology is given to us, we do not vote on it and see what the majority wants to do.   That is NOT Christianity.   Proverbs 18:2  “A fool does not seek knowledge, but is quick to express an opinion.”     Christianity is not something WE create or fix as time goes by.  It matters not how much grace,  compassion, and humility is used to express an opinion…..Christianity is not based on opinion.  God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit…..that is where he rules come from….not from human voting and polls.  It is our role to accept, not argue.    Those who support homosexual activity are finding some backdoor way to get around what was settled at least 2000 years ago.   I do not understand working hard to promote such a vile act as homosexual behavior, pretending that the whole world is wrong for 100 generations.     Matt 19:4-6 is very clear and so is Romans 1:15+ ….to any Christian who accepts the Bible, but it will never be enough for somebody trying to unravel Christianity and “fix” it so it does not “get in the way” of what part-time Christians want to do.

        1. You are not accepting what God said in Leviticus 18 and 20, nor what Jesus said in Matt 19:4-6, and Paul in Romans 1:15+.   You reply….”absolutely” , then find a way to discount what the Bible says.  Texas is not mentioned, either.  And neither is marijuana.   So, I guess Jesus has no objection to marijuana abuse and Judgment Day does not apply to Texans.  Just silly.   A Christian cannot read the Bible and argue with it and find loopholes.  We are commanded to read the Word….and accept it.   We are not commanded to love un-Christian behavior….homosexual and otherwise.      Why are you so desperate to support homosexuality?  I would never rely on cute answers to represent Christianity.  Take a look at Matt 19:4-6.  It is very clear to any Christian who is not looking for a loophole.  There are hundreds of bad behaviors that Jesus did not address by name…..IT DID NOT COME UP.    It would be foolish to assume that Jesus has no objection to any bad behaviors not specifically mentioned.   Christianity aside, homo defies Natural Law and has never been accepted by any legitimate civilization or religion……for a reason.   Some homosexuals have committed suicide because they were so  depressed about the hand they were dealt.  Parents may make some desperate concessions eventually, but they are always devastated to get then news of a homo child.  For a reason.  There is nothing good about it.

          1. The Roman Empire was around for over one thousand years, and longer still when you look at the Republic before it started having emperors. At it’s height it covered nearly all of Europe and much of Northern Africa. Imma go ahead and call that a legitimate culture.

            Also, not to ruin your day or anything but the founding fathers tots based our government on theirs. See also the fact that all our state houses look kinda like their temples. That is on purpose, not a strange coincidence.

              1. Naw, man. The Greeks weren’t shit. I mean, they’ve only been pretty much the defining influence on Western art and culture for pretty much as long as there has been a Western art and culture. But they weren’t a legitimate culture. Not even a little bit.

            1. You have misread my comments about legitimate civilizations……..and are debating about what you misread.                       Once again, in the 1%, and nothing on the real issue.   Hard to debate when you have nothing on your side….except you are doing what you want to do because you want to…..and that’s the end of it.    Anything to avoid real, adult conversation.

              You cannot find anything to support your position.   It is what it is.  It may take years, but perhaps you will finally see the light before it is too late.

              1. You said no legitimate society had ever embraced homosexuality (well homosexual sex at least, the concept of a sexual orientation is fairly new). We just gave you two that did. How did we misunderstand you? And that is a point to defend our position. One with, you know, facts to back it up. You seem to think that anything short of agreeing with you is failing to have an adult conversation. That is why we aren’t taking you seriously.

                Look, I have read all of Matthew 19. You know what Jesus is talking about in it? Gays? No. He’s talking about divorce and celibacy. Then he says some good stuff about letting children approach him, and giving all you have up to serve God (which most of us do not do).  And then there’s one of my favorite bits about how with God all things are possible.

                Actually, funny thing about Matthew 19, Jesus mentions something about “born-eunuchs.” It’s a term that very possibly referred to gay people (in that weird round about way of a people that had no concept of sexual orientations, at the very least it refers to someone with no natural desire for women). And yet in this one maybe reference there is no scorn. Indeed he says those who can manage to be eunuchs for God should do so.

                And I’m gonna go ahead and guess that this is where you tell me that I’m looking for loopholes because I want to understand the language context of a man who lived 2000 years ago and who didn’t use words the same way I do.

  6. Honestly, the passage in Romans is a really awful bit of cherry picking. It really does not matter if Paul thought homosexuality was a sin or not (and for what it’s worth Paul only ever gives a lukewarm approval of marriage of any kind). The mass bulk of the content of the letter is dissecting what Jewish law means for gentile Christians. Two themes are repeated over and over. The first is that judgment of others is a not good thing. We are called to love one another, not to pass judgement. The second is that faith and spiritual attention to God are more important that trying to follow behavior laws. The big message is that we are to be kind to one another and that seeking to be good to our neighbors trumps trying to follow a codified set of rules. There are other arguments I could put forward about this, but they really only apply to folks who are willing to see Paul as a human being with a set of biases earned from being a man of his time and culture who was trying his hardest to explain the truth of God as best he knew how. For those who think that the Bible is a mystical book written by God using humans as dictaphones, all I can say is keep reading the rest of the letter.

  7. I am a Christian and have never in my life believed that being gay was a sin. Even as a devout kid, I just didn’t believe it for a second.

    I had a FB post about this a year or two ago that went a little viral, which freaked me out at the time, since it was just an off-the-cuff lunchtime rant…it could have been better written, but hey.

    http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150303269905607

    The Bible has more verses about not getting drunk than it does about not being gay. The Bible in fact condones all kinds of crap in it that we’ve since decided are crap (women not talking in church, fucking SLAVERY, etc.), because with time, people have become more enlightened.

    Jesus never said anything about not being gay, but He said a lot about not judging others. The way people wrap their bigotry in religion disgusts me.

    The only gay wedding I ever went to was a church wedding, though…between two female seminary students. (I do have a reception coming up in a few weeks…my coworker and his longtime boyfriend are getting married in NYC.) Church is the only place (eh, as far as I know) where I’ve met transgendered people, and I’ve learned about transgendered issues almost completely through church. So churches can provide education rather than perpetuating ignorance.

    1. Even in my Catholic school (where the attitude about being gay was less than what we might call enlightened) the teachings on Paul v. Homosexuals were always that he was griping about prostitution and hedonism, not actual gayness in and of itself. Likewise it was taught that as sin has to involve choice, homosexuality could not in and of itself be sinful (now having sex, that’s another bag of worms*). And this is from a church with a conservative leaning hierarchy. I feel like most churches have it within them to teach acceptance on this issue without having to change much in the official sanctioning department.

      *Worth noting that in my class of 20 some odd high school aged Catholic girls there was a unanimous decision that simply letting gay folks marry would solve all the problems. We voiced this opinion and got the thousand eye stare from the teacher.

      1. To Opifex:       Enlightened.   Why are the anti-Christians and anti-Americans ALWAYS enlightened ?     And the Christians and Americans are just stupid.     The view of the Catholic church toward homosexuals is not an opinion……but the words of God, Jesus, and Paul.   Paul was selected by Jesus to take His message to the Gentiles, so what he says in Romans 1:15+ is very significant.  How often does opposition to homosexuality have to be mentioned….so that it means something ?     Why should any Christian church teach acceptance to homosexuality…..just because you say so and some high school girls say so ?    Evidently, to you, the Bible does NOT have the final say…..but popular opinion decides.                                          That can NEVER happen.   That is a church that is no longer Christian.  But, somehow….I don’t think that bothers you any.   There are many who call themselves Christians who really want to behave in any way they want and just keep changing the Christian rules to fit their behavior.   That is more like a country club, but not a Christian church.    Christianity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.   That is who makes the rules.  We do not argue.  We accept and do the best we can.  I hope your Christian journey gets on the right track soon.

         

         

        t

          1. As always, when faced with facts, the liberal and homosexual is outta here.      No debate.  No concession to the truth.  Never.   It amazes me how so many of you lie to each other and never back up anything with a real source.

            1. What?

              Look, we’re all for friendly debate and discussion around here, but call one of our members an abomination one more time and I’ll introduce you to my heathen ban hammer. In case you’re new to the Internet, that means you won’t be able to be Jesus’ mouthpiece in this privately owned business any longer. I don’t care who you speak for or what religion you follow, we don’t let any of our members call each other names.

    2. To Bryn:    Devout Christian.   You may call yourself devout, but I have no idea what you meant by that.  In the same sentence you state that YOU never believed that gay was wrong.  It does not matter what you think or what I think…..it only matters what Jesus said and what Paul said or what we read anywhere in the Bible.  I never heard any evidence from you that came from the Bible….just what you think is right.   That is not how Christianity works.  Christians read, understand, believe, and accept.   GOD is in control, not us.  Christians understand that.  It is not for us to define God or try to figure Him out.   You are misled and are misleading others with a very false sense of Christianity.  In Leviticus, God makes it clear, and in Romans 1:15+, Paul makes it clear again.  We do not get to set that aside and substitute what we think it should be.                               And what is with the F-bomb in your “Christian” explanation?   If you are occasionally attending  church where you are learning that gay is ok…..that is NOT a Christian church.  That “church” is promoting popular culture of the under-30 crowd, but not Christian theology.  Not my opinion.   Just accepting what God, Jesus, and Paul said vs what you think is right.      And the same old name-calling…..anybody who disagrees with you is a bigot….automatic.    You have no Bible support, but you are enlightened.  Those who point to what God, Jesus, and Paul say….they are the bigots.   So, God, Jesus, and Paul are bigots and are not enlightened ?     Your Catholic education did not take as well as it should have.  What else do you object to in Christianity ?   That list must be long.   I am sure that abortion is ok with you, also.   Please rethink what you are doing.  Also, judgment means condemning…..Christians are not to condemn….say who will go to Hell…..but we certainly are required to speak up about un-Christian behavior.

       

      1. I’d gladly suck Satan’s dick rather than follow any god that welcomes someone like you. If you are trying to bring people to Christ, you are failing miserably. Somehow I think you’re just another troll fapping for Jesus.

      2. “I am sure abortion is okay with you too” the tragic bigot typed furiously, hoping that this lowest of blows would finally help him to get through to the poor deluded group of women who were, in his opinion, incorrectly following the instructions for living as laid out in an old book.

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